Someone promoting XXXXXXXX.biz.ly has been adding links to various wikis. Despite these links being subtle (almost considerate) they are classed as spam, particularly in the light of our investigations.
After dicussion and reviewing the relatively small number of apparent spams we have agreed the if the spammer stops spamming we will remove his address. – Joe - 2005-02-28 22:06 UTC
The spammer does appear to have stopped spamming wikis, but because his site is a "search engine" a lot of pages that list referrers have his link listed. He explained this before, its pretty hard to tell if its the truth or referrer spam. – Joe - 2005-04-17 00:40 UTC
From Google he seems to be a guestbook spammer and wiki spammer. If he really was just commenting on sites (as he says) he must speak Japanese, Russian, French, English, and German because you can find his spam at sites in all those languages. As you can see how his link is relevant to this wikipedia page. He is already listed on a lot of wiki BadContent and BannedContent pages.
removed
This spammer came to our attention when he signed the kayakwiki guestbook in a well formatted manner. More considerate than your average spam, but spam none-the-less. The guestbook message looked like this:
2.22.05 - The webmaster of: http://www.XXXXXXXX.XXX.ly - TOUS MES COMPLIMENTS!...
When Halz described the incident at bottom of the kayakwiki WikiSpam page, the spammer came back and removed the discussion and kept removing it for many hours every time someone would replace it.
…After we reverted the change, and added a message for the people at XXXXXXXX.XXX.ly, the spammer contributed a comment:
(Sorry for my bad english). Yesterday, reading on the head of this guestbook "add a comment", I added a cool comment on this guestbook ("compliments"), because I was appreciating your site about kayak, a sport I like… If I typed in the comment, the adress of my site, it is because it is usual on the greater part of guestbooks on the Internet, to let the adress of his own site!… (Clicking the link was also a possibility for your site to appear on the main page of my site. As many other sites on the www, I use a script saying who reffers to my site… a easy and friendly way to linking back the sites who links to me… and sending visitors to them as thanks). So I was very surprised to read here some comments considering me as a spammer, and my site as a porn site!… (Of course it is not a porn site, only a webdirectory!… but perhaps those bad comments are made without visiting my site!). The system of Wiki let the possibility to edit pages… so, of course, i use this possibility to erase all those slanderous comments. I dont know if slander is crime in US, but in my country it is… Anyway, the improper things i read here, are absolutly against the ethic of the net. So, please, erase all the bad and slanderous comments on your page!… And let me give you an advice… if you dont want people giving their opinions on your site… dont have a guestbook… dont have a wiki!… ;-)
PS: I have no control on the list of referrers who appears on my homepage (so some adult links can be inclued)… So a link to your site appear in this list during 5 days after the last click for here. If some visitors come from my site to yours, I am very sorry about that!…
Joe's response copied from the kayakwiki:
Just because your site is not a porn site it doesn't mean you are not a spammer. Adding your link to a lot of wikis and guestbooks for no other reason than improving your PageRank is spamming. Wikis are put up for a purpose, not to give spammers a place to put links. If you are actually just commenting on sites you must speak Japanese, Russian, French, English, and German because I find your spam at sites in all those languages. How is your link relevant to this wikipedia page?
Further comments from the people at XXXXXXXX.XXX.ly would be most welcome here
Actually I blocked him. I think its obvious he is not going to stop removing anything that says he is a spammer. Manni is here now so if he wants to unblock him and continue reverting all day thats up to him. – Joe - 2005-02-23 10:37 UTC
Ah ok. Is he blocked from viewing the whole website, or just from editing? Suggest we leave a message for him (if he can see it) along the lines of… "When we unblock him at 12:00 UTC he can contribute to the discussion, but if he continues to delete our discussions he will quickly be blocked again (which acheives nothing)" – Halz - 2005-02-23 10:54 UTC
Currently, he is only blocked from editing. He should be able to read everything. Yikes! I had a look on the site yesterday when I witnessed the crazyness on the Kayak wiki. The site is a disgrace. If you want to rank high on Google, just get some decent content. And deactivate that referrer script; it will only attract referrer spammers. How clueless can you get? Jesus Christ! Just look at the source code! There are 94 iframes in this mess! 94! And no less than 550 images. This is the most disgusting piece of html I have ever seen. I'm not surprised that Google doesn't like it. – Manni - 2005-02-23 12:05
He can view it, just can't edit. I doubt he has any more to add to the discussion, he just wants the discussion to go away. If he stopped acting like a spammer that would be a good start. – Joe - 2005-02-23 11:00 UTC
He's also repeatedly deleting references on kayakwiki at the moment – Halz - 2005-02-23 11:16 UTC
I just had a look at the server logs. Someone left a referrer to this wiki in his Nedstat counter and he came back from the counter results page. Seems he only gets visited by referrer spammers and people trying to find out who spammed them. Boy, this is fun. – Manni - 2005-02-23 12:15
That somebody would be me probably. I wanted to make sure he knew the page existed. But he had already found it hours before anyway, he just didn't start deleting until I posted a lot more about his spamminess and left the referrer. (PS. Conflict prevention sucks on this wiki.) – Joe - 2005-02-23 11:21 UTC
OK. Was fun to see this counter results page anyway. Yes, edit conflicts need some work. Maybe I messed this one up; I'll have a look.
Turns out that our friend wasn't banned at all. I'm glad he seems to be out of his deletion-frenzy. – Manni - 2005-02-23 12:33
Thank you very much naming me "your friend"… Franco-german friendship have a great value for me!… So, I prefer let you, the webmaster of chongqed.org erasing himself all those slanderous comments about XXXXXXXX.XXX.ly, can be found in (ex: this page and mainly the list of spamming site). I hope you made that very soon!… Thank you very much again.
PS: By the way, the reason was XXXXXXXX.XXX.ly added in wikipedia page was not unapropriate but made probably to let the french speaking people knowing that dmoz.org (in english) -a link to it exist in this page- is not the only way to access to the french content of this database!… Anyway, if each redactor of wikipedia have the risk to be added by you to a list of spammer, sure you are going to kill the wikipedia project… But I am sure you dont want that!…
(Was a "droit de réponse" of XXXXXXXX.XXX.ly)
Everything we have said is true, which means it is not slander. You have spammed your links all over the web. If you do not understand that you are spamming that is your problem. We are not the only ones who consider you to be spamming. You are listed as a spammer on many BannedContent lists on different wikis. Not only are you a spammer you are a vandal because if anyone posts the truth about your spamming you repeatedly attempt to delete it.
The Wikipedia article is about wikis, it lists other wiki encyclopedias, wiki software, and large sites that use wikis. Your site has no relevance to wikis other than that you spam them. Comparing your site to dmoz.org is not relevant to that page, I see no reason dmoz.org is listed there either. And Dmoz.org is a community based project, not one trying to raise money through advertising and affiliate links like your site does with at least 5 advertisment banner images (not counting the NetZero? stuff at the top).
If you really want hits to your website you need to redesign the site. People hate such a large number of advertisements. The referrers list should be monitored for inappropriate links or completely removed. Many spammers send fake referrers to these kinds of lists just so they get their site listed even though their site has no link to you. The text you have scrolling on the status bar is considered annoying to most internet users, not only is it ugly but it hides the URL of the site you hover the cursor over so you don't know where you are really being sent to. The large list of hidden keywords at the bottom of your page has been known for years to get a site penalized in search engines. Read about ways to improve your ranking at these sites: google.com, submittoday.com, search-marketing.info, stepforth.com, company-wizard.co.uk.
– Joe - 2005-02-25 19:52 UTC
"DROIT DE REPONSE" FROM XXXXXXXX.XXX.LY
Thank you Joe for having taking the time to answer to my comments…
Discussion is certainly better the way you choosed before… but I am sorry to say to you, I cannot agree with a large part of you said here… I am trying to explain again what is my position:
At first some misunderstanding with me and you (and others people here), seems at first coming from cultural differences… The way you choose in this site to fight against spam is very shocking for a frenchman. From many centuries France stop using pillory!… And the black lists and other badcontent public pages can be assimilate as a virtual pillory… The incitement to denunciation, like chongqed.org use is also something very far of our mentality, mainly since the occupation of France during WWII… we dont want a Gestapo of the web!… So everybody can be anxious when two guys, perhaps with good intentions, take a domain name in "org" to legitimate their action as an official power, and want cleaning the web… last century other people too, wanted cleaning the society from "bad" elements… And in 2005, this conception of "purification" of all devience seems not dead in some country like USA… Cowboys not dead!… But I dont want to be your indian…
Like you, I am not supporting the spam, but what is spam?… This concept is not something with an universal definition!… As every users of the web, i am not very happy when I received tons of commercial e-mails in my email-box for Viagra, drugs, cigaretts… etc… I dont like too seeing that, on guestbooks and blogs… In France the notion of spam concern mainly the commercial mass sending of email… There is a legislation in France against that.
But about unapropriate messages in blogs and guestbooks, it seems your anglo-saxon vision seems more restrictive than our latin vision, more open minded… We have a tradition of freedom and respect of human rights… If a webmaster create a forum (bbs), a guestbook or a blog it to let people writing in… If he dont want that… so he dont create that in is website!… Anyway if a webmaster consider a message is inappropriate, he erase it… and certainly no going to crying and complain to an other site to say: "boo boo… have you seen this bad bad guy who writed a message on my guestbook with the adress of his site"… anyway if the visitor let a cool comment in the guestbook about the site visited (and not, of course only a commercial message), about the site visited, a french webmaster because he is himself a webmaster, think it is not abnormal he let a link to his own site. If he dont want the visitors let a link… it is easy, lot of models of guestbook are avaible on the web without "url" field… If a script in a web page let to visitors possibilities of interactivity… well!… not surprizing visitors use this possibility!… Anyway we had in France many popular google or yahoo contests (like: "mangeur de cigognes" or "lumitra") and you can verify with search engines the webmasters generaly dont erase links to those pages, who are more considerered as the pratice of a sport or an innocent hobby than spams!…
So you must understand what I am so surprise seeing my site was added to the virtual pillory of chongqed!… If I writed a comment on the guestbook of kayakforum. It is because:
I dont understand so violent and mad reaction about that!…
Anyway you and others guys here can have their own strange conception of the "true"… But please try to be enough open minded, to understand that your "true" can not be THE true!…
Create links on the web to a site is not illegal and can NOT be seriously consider as spam if the webmaster of the site let on the page the possibility to visitors to create the link, and dont ask he dont want the link be create!… (perhaps the webmaster of kayakforum must modify his guestbook concerning that!). Webmasters of sites can use "nofollow" script for robots and inform the visitors, that adding a link to the page have no effect on Google pagerank. Prevention is better than repression.
The link create in the page of wikipedia (fr) is not so inappropriate than you says!… So… vous parlez français?… i doubt of that… The link was erased… By the way it is NORMAL to type or erase, in a wikipedia if it is to ameliorate the content… This is the concept of wikipedia!… and I said here what I supposed the reason why that link was create!… cetainly not a spam of me!…
(I dont understand how speaking Japanese, Russian, French, English, and German can made you considered as a spammer (???!!!). That a very strange comment… That is meanning that only using english is no spamming?… Perhaps if I was a native english speaking man, my site not added in the pillory???… Seems your version of true, have a political content…)
Erasing the comments who could be considered by that a court of justice as slanderous, is not "vandalism" but appropriate use of wiki system. I was thinking erasing all that was enough… but visibly, seems not!… But now I prefer let the german webmaster of this site erasing himself ALL the slanderous content about my site hiself… I am sure he made that soon!…
The presence of my site on one another "virtual pillory" is not an argument… everybody can having added the two URL of my site on the list!… (And THAT adding is a spam!…). By the way, badcontent is only one list, copy "in extenso" by people who dont realize the problems with justice, they can have to publish this list on their site!… some sites abusivly added in can going in court of justice and attack all the publishers!… (That concern also the list of chongqed… i hope the two peoples legaly responsable of chongqed have the fortune to pay the dammages!…).
About the content of my site now… let me saying to you first, of course, you are really free to not appreciate this content… Be sure also, I am not appreciating a large part of it… He exist only since October… And I have not enough time to take care of it… Sure, I realize I must improve lot of things… I am open minded… So thank you everybody here who made constructive comments for helping me to improve… I had just erased some scripts I found on A SEO site… So the downloading of page is now better…
But, anyway, I am also free of choosing the way I want, about the content of my site. Regarding the french laws, nothing is illegal, nothing can be considered as a spam… I am free to use so frames i want, so images or banners I want… I know visitors dont like advs to much… but sorry I need cash, and this is honnest and legal way to have some… (By the way, a large part of banners are from "biz.ly" who host my site…). Some guys here seems having a great opinion of Google… Yes great tool!… I use it also (but no to track the other webmasters… I am not considering me as a cop… not my job, I let the real cops made theirs…). But I not forgot Google is a commercial site too… And perhaps before "emmerder" the others webmaster, people wanting really fithing against that they consider as spams, must see the responsability of Google himself about that… Why so much people try to increase their pagerank?… Because if you have not a good Google ranking it is very hard, to exist on the www. So your reflexion about spamming must be, at first, a reflexion about the system of Google rank… About, now, my choose of list of referrers… I dont want erase it for the moment, because that give me visitors non depending of search engines… (And a visitor is a visitor… All welcomed…). This referring list cannot be considered as a spam… Puting keywords on page are not a spam too… the visitors of my site can really find informations about all that words, in the directory or the search engine… The effect about search engines ranking is not so sure as you said… Opinions about that are very different on SEO forums…
At last, as lawyer, I can confirm you the ways use by chongqed.org, if chongqed.org was a french site could made very serious problem for their owners. A website can be considered as a press organ, like a newspapers… The webmaster is as a director of publication… He is responsable regarding the law, of all content of his website… including forum and bbs… So if a slanderous comment is made, he can be condamned… He can also be condamned for a "volonté manifeste de nuire à autrui" (trying to saying that in english): If he volontary try to harm, hurt someone, his reputation of his property… Abusive attack of somebody or publishing a black list, (on the www too), can be severly judged by our courts of justice. Our laws protect too the private life… And a IP adress is consider as an adress… So I am very suprised to see IP adress published in this forum!…
I don't know what is the legislation in Germany… but with the European Union, I suppose the legislation not so different… Of course, I dont want informe the authorities of Germany, if I am angry, I have no hate… I prefer the discussion and alert everybody here, about the consequences of some thoughtless acts!… As webmaster, I know some errors can be made…
So, saying here again, I hope… (NO, I am sure!… ;-) ) webmaster of chongqed.org, (and kayakforum?…) erased themselves all data concerning my site…
CORDIALES SALUTATIONS!… (and sorry again for my bad english)
Wikis are a valuable resource on the internet. They let people from all over the world collaborate and share ideas. There are hundreds of thousands of spammers that seem to think it is necessary to post their links on those sites for no benifit of the wiki, only to get more hits and better search engine ranking for their site. Comparing our site to what Hitler did only shows your desperation. All we do is let other people know what website URLs are being spammed on open websites to allow them to prevent the same happening to their site. If spammers don't want to be listed on our site they should not be spamming. We have no power to delete spammer websites, have them removed from search engines, or do anything but inform people.
Just a few years ago there was no legal definition of spam in any country. When the current laws were designed the major problem was email spam, no one knew wikis or blogs would exist. Does that mean since spam was not illegal before those laws you liked getting it? Obviously not. No one likes spam. You even admit you don't like seeing posts about viagra, drugs, cigarettes, etc. on guestbooks and blogs. What makes your site any different? Many of those spams say basically the same as you did: "Great site", "Cool Site", etc. Just try and understand why there are laws against email spam, its because it is disrupting the normal use of a form of communication by overloading it with unwanted messages. That is exactly what wiki, blog, and guestbook spammers do.
A webmaster should not have to constantly monitor his wiki to prevent spammers from destroying it. We have seen one example of a wiki being spammed so heavily and not monitored that much of the irreplaceable content posted by the original authors were lost. Wikis are like a community or neighborhood. Do you like it when someone comes in and vandalizes your community? Is it legal for them to do that? No obviously not. The popular google/yahoo contests you mention which also exist outside of France are exactly the same, they are vandals. Some websites don't care, others have given up, but the majority treat those the same as spam.
Only one other poster to the kayak wiki guestbook had posted his site address. It was a non-commercial personal blog.
There is nothing violent about chongqed.org. We have done nothing to you or your site other than informing people that its URL has been spammed on several wikis.
How exactly was your link on the Wikipedia page appropriate? It possibly could be appropriate somewhere on Wikipedia, but your site has nothing to do with wikis, that page was defining what wikis are. That is why your site got removed, because it had nothing to do with the topic of the page. That is spam.
My point about you having posted your comments to sites in all those different languages is that it is very unlikely you understand all those languages. If you can't read the site how can you have any relevant comment to post to it? That is a very good sign of a spammer.
We have said many times that much of the spam problem is due to Google's PageRank system. Google needs to do something to fix it. But without throwing out the entire PageRank system what can they do?
I don't care at all what your website looks like, I was just pointing out some of the things that might make visitors actually want to use your site. If you like having it look like the usual spammer’s page that is fine.
If you don't want your IP address posted you should not post to wikis, most all wiki software automatically displays the poster's IP address in several public places (on the Recent Changes page, the page's revision history, and at the bottom of the page). By posting to a wiki you voluntarily allowed it to be displayed publically.
You say your latin vision has a tradition of freedom and respect of human rights, what about banning religious activities or banning religous head scarfs in public schools? What about making it illegal to sell Nazi related items. I think selling them or buying them is horrible, but banning it doesn't seem like a tradition of freedom to me; it seems exactly like a blacklist.
Now that hopefully you have a better idea what many people consider as spam you will not continue spamming.
– Joe - 2005-02-26 08:18 UTC
Ohhhhhh Joe!… So hard to explain to an american guy his "true" could not be an universal "true"… Harder when he is a Texan!… (The mankind have the same problem since few years with an other texan!… ;-) )… But I try it again!…
How make you understanding that you make in this site is in french "délation", and if "délation" is something common in USA, in other culture like France that is an horror!… Internet is a place where people of different cultures can meet each others… and you must understand that your US way of seeing cannot be universal, so try to respect the other visions…
I tryed to explain you, I dont pratice spamming!… But impossible to make you understanding… A form of autism?… You speak about legal definition of spamming, but you know the only laws I am suppose to respect is the law of my country… And sure, i respect them… who are you to think that the opinion of two guys, "Manni" and you is an universal law must be respected by all the Internet users!… who autorize you to give lessons to people of 5 continents?… If you want to fight against spam, begin by your own country… By emails I daily received from US company, asking me about services concerning only american people!… When you fight against "spammers" to others countries think to consequences… Do you know that non-democratic governments as the chinese one, can use informations you give here to repress internet users!… I read some death penalties have been pronounced in China against spammers!… How can you take the risk to live whith that on your soul?… And you said you are non-violent?…
Regarding my "case", how can you seriously thinking that adding cool comments on guestbook of sites I like, are spamming???… If I think the site I visited are "great" or "cool", why I am not autorized by you to say that???… (But perhaps I must write "You have a great site" because a guy like you, so nuts to seeing spams everywhere, can understand I was speaking about "my" site… But I was no speaking!!!… Look at better those guestbook , i never write "I have a cool site")… By the way, the purpose of my site is not commercial… ok there is banners on… sometime for non profit-organizations… that is usual in France to find some advs on personnal homepages too… But my site is made to give to users an easy access to the content of the web and others useful tools and services (all are totally free), so I want serving too the community of Internet users… are you against that?… And many internet users are happy to use that possibility… (the reason also the url of my site appears on some lists of referrers… this is because of the using of the search engine of my site…).
You said most all wiki software automatically displays the poster's IP adress… ok, but that is no reason to human posting, again and again in the forum!… It seems also some wiki software better preserve the privaty… so why not using those?…
About the respect of human right in France, well, I think here is not the place to a polemical discuss about that. Just learn that "laicité" is not against the religion… It is a way to everybody respect the conviction of each other in our society… in France we are not organize in "communauties"… Perhaps hard to you to understand that too… Anyway, I am smiling when a texan guy speak to me about human rights…
And at last, you dont seems understanding the problems your site can have with justice… and mainly Manni, legaly responsable of the site… (Please read again my posts). I see in the black list of chongqed a legal problem who can directly concern you, because your name appears in the site, and you live in USA, a country where lawyers are fearsome!…: Yes… seems your are really not serious about the url you put in your virtual "pillory"… Probably because you found "spam" concerning an url like http://www.nameofthewebhosting.com/nameofthespammer , you not write the complete url of the "spammer", but only http://www.nameofthewebhosting.com penalizing all the hundreds of others users of "nameofthewebhosting"… (that is not of course the name in the url… I let you find!…). That webhosting company is a big american company, and certainly dont appreciate to be present in a list of spammers!… Perhaps they dont see your page at this moment… But are you waiting their lawyers asking you, thousands or millions $ of damages because that stupid and slanderous adding?… (the easy way for you perhaps to erase all the list!… ;-) and find less abnormal way to fight spam than "délation", like giving advice to webmaster to prevent spams… I said you I have no hate… I try to explain my position and inform you the dangers about the content of your site… if you are not afraid to create problems to others webmaster, I dont want create problems to anybody, you inclued!… It is your interest to hears me.
Of course, I am waiting too, the names of my site erased now of your "pillory"…
CORDIALES SALUTATIONS (and sorry again for my bad english)
PS: By the way, about my use of different languages… well… I am able to understand many foreign languages… Where is the problem?… and when I want to understand a website in a language i dont know… I use online translator… Have you heard of that tools?…
Here's is my view if anybody is interested:
At chongqed.org we are trying to fight against wiki, guestbook, and comment spam. We are not fighting email spam here, although we hate it just like the next guy. Therefore any references to email spam are completely irrelevant to this discussion.
At chongqed.org we are not trying to enforce any laws, we are not trying to get any new legislation, and we are not claiming that what wiki spammers do is illegal. All we are trying to provide is a central place for people that are offended by the spamming of their wiki, blogs, and guestbooks to report incidents of this kind of spam and a way to fight back.
Consequently, we are not revealing anything here that hasn't been public before. If somebody decides to leave something on a wiki or decides to comment on a blog, it was his decision to place links to his site publically available on the internet. Thus chongqed.org is not denouncing anybody. All we do is document certain things.
In no way are we trying to enforce an American, Texan, or German point of view on the rest of the world. We are trying to enforce the views of the owners of wikis, websites with guest books, and of blogs. Their view, apparently, is that those resources should be open, that anybody should have the right to post or leave comments, but that spamming cannot be tolerated because it is a grave exploitation of this right. I fail to see how the French differ in any way from the rest of the world in this respect. You said yourself that "A website can be considered as a press organ, like a newspapers… The webmaster is as a director of publication… He is responsible regarding the law, of all content of his website… including forum and bbs…". I couldn't agree more. That's why I abide by the German law and publish my name and address in the "Impressum" of chongqed.org. You, on the other hand, prefer to remain completely anonymous which seems strange to me in view of what you said.
But this is not the only incident were what you said contradicts what you do or say elsewhere. You also said that "We have a tradition of freedom and respect of human rights." which is certainly true when you are referring to the French people. But on the other hand, you seem to think that every Texan must share the views of George W Bush, thereby discriminating against no less than 20 Million Texans. Your hints about the Gestapo speak a similar language.You also seem to assume the role of a spokesperson for the complete French nation. Well, I know at least one French place where they think that spamming is bad and that spammers should be reported to chongqed.org: http://www.wikini.net/
At chongqed.org we believe that everybody is responsible for what he is doing, whether he or she was born in Germany, Texas, China, or France. We are not claiming that all Chinese are spammers or that no one from France could ever come up with a decent web site. The opposite is true. But if you have the right to do something (e.g. post to a wiki), it also means that you have some responsibility for what you post or for what your post destroys. Posting spam destroys search results and (and this is worse) it will destroy the open nature of large parts of the internet. We don't want closed wikis. We don't want blogs that you cannot leave comments on. And that's why we demand that people live up to their responsiblities and respect the wishes of others. Our way to do this is what you describe as "the pillory". We would rather say that it is a documentation effort. Just like a newspaper reporting about something cannot be called a "pillory", chongqed.org cannot be called a pillory.
I would like to suggest that you stop your legal threats. If the hoster of your web site is a decent hoster, he will surely simply take your web site offline as soon as he hears about your spamming. This has nothing to do with human rights or freedom of speach, but is simply a point of the contract between you and your hoster. If you want to be removed from the blacklist of chongqed.org, all you have to do is tell us that you will stop spamming and that you want to be removed. It's a simple as that.
Yes, an IP address is something that touches on privacy. But as Joe already pointed out, wiki engines generally reveal the IP addresses of their posters and that's why we can assume that you didn't mind the posting of your IP address. Whether the IP address is published by a script of published by a human being is completely irrelevant. If you, however, don't want you IP address published on the chongqed.org wiki, simply go ahead and obscure it. If you start to delete complete pages, we will restore them, though.
– Manni - 2005-02-27 20:29
Thank you Manni… seems you are more open minded that some others guys here!… ;-)
Of course, I agree whith you about this point. "Spam" is not something good for the community of Internet users. But it is mainly the responsability of each of that Internet users, to preserve himself against that, and the responsability of representative governements of each countries, alone or by international treaties, to make an definition of "spam" and fight against. Of course, citizens like you are free to form a lobby, to promote their own definition of "spam" -(in the respect of laws, and I am not sure all in chongqed.org is really legal, regarding european laws, and not only the french ones… I just asking you about that, because you seems not aware of big problems you can have as legal responsable of the site). So, I really cannot agree with the means you choose to fight against spams, mainly because "witches hunting" and another "black lists" is against the republican tradition and the law of my country, and also my own morals. Beeing studing laws at University, I am also really sure, that I never made something against the ones of my country. I also, never suppose somebody on web can considering posting a cool comment on a guestbook, who let you the possibility to let the url of your own site, could be seriously considered as "spam"!… But seems some people in the Internet community think as that: like you!… Now, I know that strange point of view exist!… and because I agree that everybody must use the Internet respecting all point of view, perhaps that point of view must be considered too…
You seems asking for a sort of "gentleman agrement"… You want I stop spamming before you erase XXXXXXXX.tk and XXXXXXXX.XXX.ly from chongqed.org?… But it is OK!… It is so easy for me to promize that!… I asked you NEVER wanted using spamming!… YES: I'll dont put URL of those sites on a page of a wiki if you can considere that is unappropriate, and in wiki guestbooks too… I considere me as a gentleman… So can I considere you too?… The only thing you have now to make for that, is erasing names of my sites from chongqed!… very soon…
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!…
Sorry about the strange way my message appears on the page… as you can see, I am really not used to write on a wiki!… ;-)
Maybe you really didn't intend your comment on the guestbook to be spam, but that is the exact same method many spammers use. And their same excuse, they were just saying that they liked the site (and the 1000s of other sites they like). It is hard to tell the difference. But your reaction of repeatedly deleting any comments about you being a spammer, your page design that looks like many spammer pages we see, and the off topic wikipedia link made you look exactly like a spammer. I wouldn't have cared to do any searching if it was just one guestbook entry that was removed, but you acted just like the usual spammer. We will remove your website address, but we will keep the rest of the text on another page. Without your address there is nothing connecting your site to it.
Since the page name was your site address the old page now redirects to anonymous.ly. We want to make sure the people who are following this are aware of how it ended. We are not going to go to the trouble of removing your site or IP address from previous revisions, they will expire after a while and are not indexed by Google.
– Joe - 2005-02-28 22:06 UTC
Halz has done similar at kayakwiki. – Joe - 2005-02-28 23:10 UTC
Yup I've removed the discusion on the kayakwiki page in line with this decision, and I support it. I think it was correct to class them as a spammer, but we have to concede that this this was actually relatively harmless spam. Also the fact that they are willing to discuss things with us, shows a level of human decency which is absent in most of the wiki spammers we deal with.
So yeah let's just hope we don't see any new links to this domain appearing.
It's interesting to have these discussions, but also quite time consuming. In fact I was in the middle of composing another big comment to add to the discussion, when these past few comments appeared just now, so that was a waste of time! hehehe.
But there are some lessons to learn. Perhaps we can clarify some points about the difinition of wiki spam, or at least I can on kayakwiki anyway. Also I was reading up on some legal points relating to the accusations of slander. In fact I believe we should have been talking about Libel. Slander is when it is spoken, Libel is when it is written/published right? Is chongqed.org libelous? I'm confident the answer is no, but it was interesting to read pages such as this definition of libel. – Halz - 2005-02-28 23:27 UTC
Well I guess, since his website is supposed to be 'web directory', he would argue that he is not referer spamming, just linking to these websites because he wants them in his directory. The link he is trying to cram onto wikipedia is something I would also not class as spam, just 'unwanted commercial linking'. The fact that he has repeatedly reinstated that link, is a clear abuse. …and that website… geez. I just tried to look at it again and it crashed my firefox.
Should chongqed.org mention the 'a' name again? It really annoys this guy when we list him here. My feeling is, he deserves to be annoyed. Perhaps we should not directly call him a spammer. Maybe we should consult with the people on Wikipedia. Do they consider him to be a spammer? – Halz - 2005-04-27 14:08 UTC
I really wouldn't like to mention him again here. You're right, he himself would never consider this spamming. And since he isn't spamming blogs or wikis, there's no need to put him on the blacklist. The good thing about this guy is that he will never make a single cent from that page, no matter how often he keeps adding his link to wikipedia; the site is just too bad. I'll start a little discussion on the wikipedia page, although the general interest in this particular page seems to be very low and I think that the best thing would be to get completely rid of it. – Manni - 2005-04-27 16:40
Our friend is back with his usual bs. – Manni - 2005-04-27 17:15